Transcript

[00:00:00] Multiple Voices: Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. Fundraising everywhere. , you don’t need to add me in there.

[00:00:31] Jade Cunnah: Welcome to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. Your go-to place for fundraising tips and inspiration. Love what you hear. Get more insights straight to your inbox. Subscribe to our email list for exclusive fundraising resources, early access to training, special discounts, and more. Just head on over to fundraising everwhere.com/podcast to subscribe Now onto today’s episode, enjoy.

[00:00:59] Simon Scriver: I love the, I love the brick work. It always means,

[00:01:01] Amy-Jane Meerman: yeah, it’s, uh, it’s real brick as well. Yeah. Oh,

[00:01:04] Simon Scriver: oh, fancy. You must, you must be very well, it’s very

[00:01:06] Amy-Jane Meerman: fancy. Yeah.

[00:01:08] Simon Scriver: Alright, well let’s kick us off. Hello everyone and welcome to the fundraising of our podcast. Uh, whether you are watching this back, uh, somewhere on social or you’re listening to us on, on, uh, our podcast.

[00:01:19] Simon Scriver: You are very welcome. My name is Simon Scriver. I’m one of the co-founders of Fundraising everywhere. Um, and this month we’ve been talking a lot about face-to-face and we’ve been talking a lot about telephone fundraising. Um, and a while ago I was fortunate enough to see, uh, my guest today speak, uh, at a previous conference, well, at a conference that I was speaking at where we were shouting about, uh, how great telephone fundraising is.

[00:01:40] Simon Scriver: And you don’t often see that. Um, and so we are very, very happy to have our speaker, uh, um, Amy Jane Mimon, who’s coming to speak to us at the conference. That’s happened on April 24th. We have our telephone fundraising conference, which is happening on April 24th. Um, so you can get tickets for that or you can watch it back on demand.

[00:02:00] Simon Scriver: Um, but let me go ahead and welcome our guest. Hello, Amy Jane, how are you?

[00:02:05] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I’m fine. Um, busy week, but, uh, that’s how it’s supposed to be. Yeah.

[00:02:12] Simon Scriver: Well, well call centers are never quiet, are they? And then you have to bounce, you have to balance it. So I’m so grateful that you’ve made the time for us.

[00:02:19] Simon Scriver: Um, because you, you are a big telephone person, aren’t you? I mean, what you, you work at the crew, uh, you manage the call center. Could you tell us a little bit about your role and what the crew do?

[00:02:29] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Um, so I talk, I will talk a little bit. So, uh, we are in Belgium. Uh, I’m Dutch, so, uh, sometimes I have to search a little bit for my words in English, but it will be fine.

[00:02:41] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, yeah, about me. Um, I. 10 years ago, I, um, I did a, a job interview for being an agent at the crew. Uh, the first week I thought, oh my gosh, this is horrible. I wanna go, I wanna go. I wanna go. Um, uh, because you have to talk to people the whole day. Uh, you go home with, uh, pain in your ears, uh, and, uh, 10 years later I’m still there.

[00:03:07] Amy-Jane Meerman: So, um. It, it already shows my passion, I think. Um,

[00:03:12] Simon Scriver: I’m always curious how people fall into this. Was this, is this a job? ’cause it’s just like, here’s a job, or were you coming from, um, speaking on the phones? Or what were you doing beforehand, before you found

[00:03:22] Amy-Jane Meerman: No, I, I wanted, uh, I want, I was very artsy, so I wanted to do a, uh, and, uh, patronage and, uh, I, I did a lot of things in, uh, in, in, in the sewing.

[00:03:34] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, so no, it was, it was just. I wanted to work somewhere and this came on my path. And, uh, like I told you, the first week, uh, became 10 years. Yeah. And

[00:03:44] Simon Scriver: this is, this has become your passion instead of creative being Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Really.

[00:03:49] Amy-Jane Meerman: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I have to, uh, to admit as well, if you, if, if I was, when I was little, uh, I wanted to be a superhero.

[00:03:57] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and so it was, okay, um, how can I become this superhero? And, uh, as time goes past, uh, and you get older, then uh, it all gets a little bit limited and, uh, you have to, to see what is really possible. Uh, so at the moment when I stepped in, in the call center, um, I already liked working for the NGOs. Um, and yeah, it, it, it’s a real passion because we are.

[00:04:24] Amy-Jane Meerman: We are, uh, doing lots of good on the world. Yeah. And I can do that from my hometown. So,

[00:04:31] Simon Scriver: and, and, and, and you guys have been doing some amazing work and, and I, I love chat. I love chatting to you and hearing you speak about it, but I’m really interested in how, in, in this kind of management style, ’cause there’s such an interesting thing when people start working in telephone fundraising or, or face-to-face fundraising, that those kind of what are viewed as like almost junior positions of fundraising.

[00:04:52] Simon Scriver: So many people kind of fall into it and, and so many people come out of it again, you know, you do, I mean, I’m not speaking for your call center, but call centers. I’ve worked with, there’s quite a lot of churn in that staff. Um, and you said yourself in that that first week can be hell. I’m, I’m really, I’m really curious.

[00:05:11] Simon Scriver: What kept you going? Then I’d really love to understand like how you bring that into your management now. Like how you get, get your new telephone people to not hate it in that first week and, and push through it. What’s, tell, tell. Start by, start by telling me about you. What, what, why did you stay beyond that first week?

[00:05:30] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, well it’s, it’s like, um. Life, live and, uh, I cannot tell your romantic story. Uh, I was alone, uh, at, uh, at a young age, uh, here in Belgium, married at a young age, and, uh, yeah, then was looking for, for a job. And, uh, and I. This was what I found and actually, uh, going to school and I always was not fitting, uh, I was not fitting in the school system.

[00:05:58] Amy-Jane Meerman: I was never fitting anywhere. Uh, and so I was very happy to, to be able to, to get a job like this. Uh, to be honest, I, I. I didn’t know if I could do it, if I was worried enough. And, um, all, all sorts of things that I have outgrown at this moment, but, uh, was very, very, uh, visible and very, uh, present at this, at that time.

[00:06:18] Amy-Jane Meerman: So it was not a romantic story of, oh, and then I saw the light and I saw how good the work was of NGOs. No, um, it was not that romantic. Um, but, uh, and. If, uh, if I bring my feeling at that first week, uh, back to, to this conversation, um, I see a lot of young people stepping in the call center, um, not knowing what they want to do, uh, dropped out of school, young moms and, uh, people with a lot of potential.

[00:06:49] Amy-Jane Meerman: So I, I want to. Really, uh, highlight that they have a lot of potential, uh, step in with very low self-esteem. Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s a little bit of an honor knowing that I came from that situation in now, being able to give chances to people that, uh, start the same way as I did.

[00:07:09] Simon Scriver: That is a beautiful story, like a true telephone fundraiser.

[00:07:12] Simon Scriver: You’ve, you’ve turned it into a, into a really beautiful, because it’s true. I mean, I, I did my days as a, as a cold caller outside of the sector and I’ve worked, you know, and managed telephone fundraising and it, there is a confidence that I found through it, and I have seen what you are talking about where people kind of discover their voice.

[00:07:33] Simon Scriver: A little bit or learn to learn to talk, I think. Yeah. And, and, and there is something about that, that apply that you then bring into every other part of your life. And more and more we’re seeing people who started as telephone fundraising move into heads of fundraising positions or even, even, you know, CEOs and things like that.

[00:07:50] Simon Scriver: Like it is a career path Now, do you, mm-hmm. Where do you see your team and your staff? Is it, do you see them moving into higher fundraising roles? What are the opportunities that you see with, with the people that you work with in that situation?

[00:08:05] Amy-Jane Meerman: I. Well, that’s why I’m really happy you invited me to talk, uh, because they are only going in those higher, or have building up their career into fundraising if we treat them well at the beginning.

[00:08:17] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, I think that’s, uh, that’s a, a very important thing to save. If you put targets on their head and they have to call, call, call, call, call, uh, the, the whole 40 hours that they’re there, uh, they’re not gonna love their job. They’re not gonna love the fundraising. They’re not going to be. Committ it, uh, to, to NGOs and what they’re doing.

[00:08:37] Amy-Jane Meerman: They’re going, they’re going to be your biggest critics because you didn’t treat them well. So, um, I, I think that’s the most important thing for all NGOs doing tailor marketing, if it’s in-house or um, or outhouse. Um, be realistic. You’re not only, um, you’re not only trapping yourself by losing donors, precious donors, but you’re losing high potential in who’s going to be the next fundraiser.

[00:09:06] Simon Scriver: Mm-hmm. Do, do you find like your clients and the NGOs that you work with, do. Is there a pressure sometimes, you know, that kind of, that causes Absolutely. Causes this channel. Like, why, why is this? Yeah. Absolutely not always happening. Yeah.

[00:09:19] Amy-Jane Meerman: I, I absolutely, and, and, um, let me say, they are all so, um, so, uh, so loving of what they do and they want to change the world like I do.

[00:09:29] Amy-Jane Meerman: And, um, but they come in and they say, oh, I had a, I had a board meeting and they told me that the fundraising department has have to fix this. Problem. So they already step in with high expectations and Okay, they are going to fix our problem. No, we’re not. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, we’re not. Uh, we’re going to help you.

[00:09:48] Amy-Jane Meerman: But fundraising takes time.

[00:09:51] Simon Scriver: It’s, it’s that, I mean, you talk so much about it. When I saw you speak that kind of learning and development and investing in our staff and team, what are, what are some of the ways that you, at the crew. I guess, I mean, I, I’d love to talk about the new people especially. Do you know, but, but everyone as a whole, like what, what are, what are the common things that you might do or, or how do you, how do you.

[00:10:12] Simon Scriver: How do you decide where your focus is when you’re trying to keep these people engaged and keep them working for you?

[00:10:18] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, so again, uh, not a romantic story, uh, that I have to tell, but, um, I became, um, manager four years ago. So as I told, I started as an agent, uh, them team coach. Uh, I, I was project leader and um, my formal manager got sick.

[00:10:37] Amy-Jane Meerman: Uh, and it was, it was supposed to be like a tree. Uh, interim, uh, interim, uh, job for me. Uh, it was full vacation. I said, okay, why not? I’m gonna do it. Four years later, I’m still there. But yeah. Uh, again, nice story.

[00:10:56] Simon Scriver: I hope you, I hope they’re not still sick, are they? I hope, I hope it’s No, no, no, no. She’s,

[00:10:59] Amy-Jane Meerman: uh, she’s very well and still working, uh, within the company now, um, with another role she really loves.

[00:11:05] Amy-Jane Meerman: So, uh, that’s, that’s all, uh, sorted out. Um, but. You know, um, we came out of, of difficult times. Corona was not an, an easy time, face-to-face stopped, uh, which means, meant that, uh, we didn’t get a lot of contacts to call. Yeah. Um, so also before that, um, t fundraising was not at all as professional as it’s.

[00:11:28] Amy-Jane Meerman: Should be right now. Uh, I think there’s a big evolution in KPI controlling, uh, measuring and all stuff that did that wasn’t there 10 years ago. Um, in, in my view, um, so. I had to build everything from, from scratch. So having a, a whole team, uh, team coaches, um, making sure that onboarding for agents was, was well, well arranged, um, because indeed it is, uh, uh, it’s busy, it’s call center.

[00:11:59] Amy-Jane Meerman: Come in, sit on your chair and start calling because, uh, every minute has to be profitable. Um. We had to change that. We had to change to, okay. Take a step back. What do you need if you come in a call center? Um, I think the most important thing in my team is that they are part of everything. So it doesn’t work without the, the, the callers.

[00:12:25] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, that’s, that’s the biggest part. If, if they’re not there, then what am I doing? Uh, so if they come in, um, we show them everything about. Us, uh, our way of working, um, making sure that they know, uh, everyone in the company that what is my role? What is the role of the DA data? Where can they go in in the first week if they have questions?

[00:12:48] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, what is the system for, uh, asking, uh, asking, uh, uh, a day off, for example? We are very flexible because I think, uh, it’s needed. Um. Explaining all, uh, all, all the organizations that we work for. Um, and, uh, little by little explaining them, um, how it all works. Um, when I was an agent, I didn’t know how it worked.

[00:13:17] Amy-Jane Meerman: Mm. Uh, I didn’t know what return on investment was and, um, how important, um, it was to, to have conversion and, and calls per hour and, um, and everything that’s behind there. Um, uh, I. Didn’t always feel I was listened to. Um, and not by fault of anyone, but, uh, it’s difficult if you have a lot of people that you have to listen to, to, to really listen.

[00:13:43] Amy-Jane Meerman: Mm. Um. So I think them, uh, being involved in everything we do really makes it a part of, okay, we are a team and we’re doing this together and we’re getting results together. Um, so also micromanagement. That’s not how we do it. Uh, um, and if I talk about how we work. A lot of our projects or clients or new clients, yeah.

[00:14:09] Amy-Jane Meerman: But it’s not a social, uh, we have to have, uh, results. Yes, of course. I’m well aware. Uh, and it’s all possible even if you do it on a, on, on a human, uh, way. So it’s all, yeah, it’s all possible.

[00:14:24] Simon Scriver: I mean, it’s because it’s, it’s a similar conversation that that kind of, we were having when in, in my call center days, and, and I’ve seen lots of clients have, and it’s, it’s really, it’s really strange that.

[00:14:36] Simon Scriver: People don’t see, you know, that we, I, I mean, I include myself in it, that sometimes we overlook that investment in people and time into their training and making them, like you say, understand what’s going on around them. And, and we’ve kind of found ourselves in this, in this strange catch 22 situation where we.

[00:14:56] Simon Scriver: We, we feel like we can’t afford to put time into them, and then we wonder why they keep leaving and keep moving on, but then we don’t change anything. So what, what do you think is the, the future? Like how do you change it? I mean, you can control it and change it in your, your place, but what about the callers or what about the heads of fundraising who are getting it from their board and you know, all this pressure?

[00:15:18] Simon Scriver: How do we on a practical level, start to get people to take this training, this learning and development? How do we get ’em to take it seriously? I.

[00:15:27] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah, it’s, it’s, um, I, I just want to add as well that we are a call center of all kinds of people. Uh, we are very inclusive, and so everyone, uh, is welcome. And, uh, we really look at, at, uh, at what they can do rather than how they look or what their disability is, or, uh, um, so I think that’s a very, very important thing to say, um, because we have a team.

[00:15:50] Amy-Jane Meerman: If, if you accept everyone. Then it becomes a team that’s warm. Um, so I, I always look for, for people that, um, that yeah, that really are, um, that really are, uh, loving, uh, and, and warm and want to work for NGOs. I think that is already the start. So if you. Engage. Uh, if you have, uh, someone coming by that wants to work at our call center, we really already look at does this person fit in our team?

[00:16:22] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and yeah, you know, I don’t want car sellers. Uh, they, they can do leads very well and I’m aware, uh, well aware. Uh, and that’s all a hype now. Yeah. Leads, were gonna do a campaign on new donors and yes, we won it all. I get it. Yeah. Um, but no, uh, that’s not how it works. So. To to, to make it start by just being very realistic in who is in your team as well.

[00:16:49] Amy-Jane Meerman: So that’s the fir that’s really the first step. That’s our responsibility to have a team that, that works well together, that’s in there for the good reasons. Um, and. For, for the organizations. Yeah. You have to be realistic. You cannot get it all. Um, uh, um, I understand that you want, uh, 10 calls at 10, uh, uh, negative, positive calls per hour.

[00:17:14] Amy-Jane Meerman: I get it. Uh, I know that you want the highest conversion rates, and I want, I know that’s, uh, I know that you want return on investment as soon as possible. I, I get it. Um, and, but it’s. It can all be done if you do it very humanely. Um, I, I think sometimes if you look at organizations, they are very harsh for, um, the, the suppliers.

[00:17:39] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, uh, if you look at the agents, they have to be, uh, ongoing every minute of their weekly, uh, weekly planning. Uh, so, um, and if I ask, okay, but the, the 38 hours, if you do 38 hours. Aren’t you getting a coffee? Do, don’t you do a talk with your colleagues? Don’t you do? Yeah. Can you pee? I think. I think you can.

[00:18:02] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, if we don’t treat them as robots and real human Yeah. Uh, then, then, uh, that’s a big, uh, problem solved. Then you have to invest time. Yeah. The, the thing that is, uh, that. That happens sometimes is that, uh, you have a, uh, you have your project and the projects, uh, manager of the NGO, um, and they have a lot of trust in us.

[00:18:26] Amy-Jane Meerman: Mm-hmm. Sometimes it’s a lot of trust, sometimes it’s a lack of trust, but, uh, it’s, it comes down the same thing. Um. They, they think, okay, hey, they have it under control. Uh, I, I, I, I leave it for what it is and I will see the results when, when it’s done. Um, and that’s such a shame because, uh, you have this, uh, really motivated team that wants to, that wants to call for your, for your NGO and wants to get, uh, good results and, um.

[00:18:54] Amy-Jane Meerman: Then engage with them. Come here to, to explain them. What do you do? Give them your passion, uh, and uh, come back to listen to conversation. Have, have good feedback, uh, moments, uh, after that. So I think it’s a partnership that is really important

[00:19:09] Simon Scriver: on, on so many levels there. ’cause you, you mentioned like a kind, a few stages in the chain and I feel like we are losing some of that.

[00:19:16] Simon Scriver: Um, team. Feeling a along the way. So sometimes it’s with like the, the agency managers and their staff, you know, not treating them, but sometimes it’s the NGOs themselves and how they view their suppliers is kind of over there. And then I, I would, I would argue it’s the same with like fundraising departments in an ngo O sometimes the rest on the board and the ceo, they, they view fundraising as something over there.

[00:19:40] Simon Scriver: Yeah. And so, well, I mean, we joked at, at at that, at a conference we both spoke at. We were talking about how. Telephone fundraisers are almost the bottom of the ladder sometimes in terms of how they’re viewed and, but really when you’re talking about results, I mean telephone is performing, isn’t it? I mean it is delivering sometimes way better ROI than some of the accepted channels.

[00:20:01] Amy-Jane Meerman: Exactly. Yeah. I find that

[00:20:03] Simon Scriver: really interesting.

[00:20:04] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, is such a good way to, to keep in touch with your donors. Um, also, and I think, uh, if you talk about all the KPI, uh, stuff, um, we forget about retention. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, uh, benchmarking with other call centers and I’ve heard it all.

[00:20:24] Amy-Jane Meerman: It’s okay. You can benchmark, uh, um, no problem for me. Uh, but you know, if, if you really want to benchmark, you have to wait six months and to see. Who of the donors is still there. Um, for example, you have all those methods of how to negotiate and no, and to get it into a yes. And, um, that’s, that’s great. But I called for some years, uh, and I’m so grateful that I had this experience.

[00:20:51] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and this is also what I tell every moment. I can pick up the phone and do some calls. Did you write a script? Then call someone and do your script. And I can assure you that half of your script goes away. Um, but do it yourself. Try to, to see what is possible. Oh, we don’t want calls longer than five minutes.

[00:21:11] Amy-Jane Meerman: Okay? Try to call yourself and then you see that what is really possible, um, that is so important, and okay, if it’s, if it is longer than five minutes, uh, if it’s a great conversations and, and, and the donor is very happy with your cause and, and keeps on giving and maybe. Takes you up in their, in, in their, in their lack.

[00:21:31] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, then it was all worded. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we also forget. So, uh, yes. Agents, but we also forget that donors are people.

[00:21:40] Simon Scriver: Yeah. You know, and they really open up, they really open up on these calls, don’t they? They get into conversations

[00:21:48] Amy-Jane Meerman: if you do it well. Um, but if I have to, uh, if I have to like do this for all, uh, the demands of, of projects, and again, I get it.

[00:21:58] Amy-Jane Meerman: Everyone is on the pressure and I get it. Um, but I really have to look at, okay, this, I won’t tell the agents and that I will tell the agents because that is relevant. And the other thing, yeah, that’s not under their, their control. Very, very important that I do that because sometimes mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, you, you should not break their mojo.

[00:22:18] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah, yeah. Uh, keep them going like they want to. Uh, like they, they’re going on well. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s so important that we don’t, we don’t go into very commercial. Um, we want results. Uh, donors absolutely sense it and with good reason. Uh, um, you have to have the, the good. Good talks to, to have, uh, donor value for a long, long time.

[00:22:45] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, where I wanted to go to as well. Uh, when I talk about retention, we often don’t get back retention. So we have a return on investment and looks very good and, um, but the retention is so important. Yeah. Uh, to see how the quality of the causes, how your strategy. Is going, uh, um, we sometimes we had, um, um, projects that say, okay, double the amount.

[00:23:11] Amy-Jane Meerman: Uh, so if you do the call for upgrade, then double the amount and first results looked fantastic. Okay? Lots of people doubled it. And, um, but if you looked at, at, uh. There was also a project that sent it emails to, uh, the donors that said no. Mm-hmm. Um, and uh, out of that came a lot of people that were not really happy with that question.

[00:23:33] Amy-Jane Meerman: Mm-hmm. Um, so what happens? Retention goes very bad and then your donor value goes down, but if you don’t look at it

[00:23:39] Simon & Amy-Jane: Yeah.

[00:23:40] Amy-Jane Meerman: Then you think you have done a good job. Yeah. Uh, and, and that’s so important too, if you want to qualitative. Good fundraising. Yeah. Uh, tailor fundraising, then it’s so important to, to, I think retention is one of the most important KPIs.

[00:23:55] Amy-Jane Meerman: And then you have complaints or is, is one of the most important KPIs. Yeah. Um, and, um, and yeah, we have to, to kick take. More care of that.

[00:24:05] Simon Scriver: Yeah. But I, I think the retention point is so important about, because it is so often that that agencies and, and callers themselves never get any feedback about what happens after that call, really.

[00:24:17] Simon Scriver: And so how can we expect to adapt and improve if that’s not happening? So I love the way that you’re leading on this. And I love, I just wanna say, I love what you’re saying about pick up the phone and try it, and then you’ll understand it because I think like,

[00:24:31] Simon & Amy-Jane: yeah.

[00:24:31] Simon Scriver: We have such a fear in the sector. You know, people who work in all levels of fundraising have such a fear of picking up the phone sometimes.

[00:24:36] Simon Scriver: But actually when you do it most of the time, the vast majority of the time, it’s a really positive experience, isn’t it? Yeah. And it’s just like, so, so I love that advice. That’s, that’s gonna be my send off for people is my thing to do. So I want you to tell me, Amy Jane. Before, and then we’ll quickly talk about your session.

[00:24:53] Simon Scriver: If someone’s picking up the phone, now imagine someone watching this or listening to this is picking up their phone. How do you get them fired up? What is your, what is your message to them, uh, as they switch off this podcast and pick up the phone for the first time?

[00:25:07] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Uh, so yes, I want them to call. Uh, so I’m, I’m going to think of something really good.

[00:25:13] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, I, um, I’ve put you, I, yeah, I really, really cherish. I had some great stories and some great conversations that I would never forget in my life. Um, some, yeah, it’s, it’s special. It’s very special if you connect with someone. Um, and, um, what is my advice? So. Especially if you never called and you’re scared and, okay.

[00:25:40] Amy-Jane Meerman: I will tell you a story about, uh, about someone that came in our call center. I use it a lot for the new agents. Um, so there was a, an Indian guy. It’s, it’s to make the image a little bit, uh, visible. Uh, and at that time he could still, uh, look at every website and, uh, he was looking for cars under, under while calling.

[00:26:02] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and um, he said like, this. So Really he said, and he talked about, yeah, madam. You know, how many trees are going, do you know how many trees are lost each year? Um, and I thought it was so funny. Uh, it, it was, it was, there was no, uh, cells, uh, there were, the energy was so, so relaxed.

[00:26:29] Simon & Amy-Jane: Yeah.

[00:26:29] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and at the end of the day, he had, he had like top scores that I couldn’t, I couldn’t wrap my mind around it.

[00:26:36] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Yeah. As I was sitting next to, uh, next to the lovely guy, uh, and for a week and every day had he had like results that I couldn’t top. And yeah, I, the secret was he was calm. Mm. He didn’t say a lot. He just said what mattered because tree mattered and trees, uh, and people had, okay. Yes. Right. Yeah, they need more money for that.

[00:27:04] Amy-Jane Meerman: I understand. And so you don’t have to, to go into a whole scripting period and, and putting a lot of hours in preparations and no, just, just have a real conversation. Uh, have a real conversation like you, like you would with, uh, a close friend or not close friend. Um, look for me if I’m, uh, next. To someone on the streets, uh, I would begin talking.

[00:27:30] Amy-Jane Meerman: Uh, not everyone has that, uh, gift or curse. Um, so I understand if it’s, it’s scary to do, but just pick up the phone and if you don’t know the answer, you can say that. Mm-hmm. Oh, I don’t know. I come back to you on that, on this because it’s a very interesting questions. Or, or this is my first time calling, so if it’s not really, uh, uh.

[00:27:51] Amy-Jane Meerman: Ex, excuse me, I’m trying my best, um, be as humanly as possible. Uh, it’s okay. This is, this is a, um, this is a sector that you can be, that you’re forgiving, uh, forgiven for making, uh, here and there some, some mistakes and just do it.

[00:28:10] Simon Scriver: Mm. I love that. I lo I think that’s great, but, and humans are so forgiving and humans do love to talk.

[00:28:16] Simon Scriver: I mean, not always authentic, not everyone, but, but shockingly amount, like we fall into these conversations all the time.

[00:28:23] Amy-Jane Meerman: Be authentic. Be yourself and, and you. You can be yourself, um, if, if in every, any, in any sector, this is a sector to be yourself. Uh, so go for it. Yeah.

[00:28:34] Simon Scriver: You remind me. I, I’ll, I’ll just tell this story and then, because no one wants to hear from me, but you remind me.

[00:28:39] Simon Scriver: When I worked in a call center, non NGO years ago, and there was a guy and we were selling on the phone, and he, you know. Some people are so desperate to sell. And when I was new you, you’re so desperate. And this guy who was just such a good salesman and he was so relaxed. And I remember one time he, he, someone wanted to buy from him and he put them on hold and he went to the vending machine and he got a drink and he came back and he opened his drink and then took them off hold.

[00:29:04] Simon Scriver: And he was just like, there was none of that desperation. It was just exactly casual and it just reminded me of your.

[00:29:10] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Yeah. But that’s really the secret. So if I see people, especially if you get a lot of nos, and so, um, just just be honest. If you call people that, uh, don’t have a structural donation, uh, then maybe out of the hundred 10 will say yes.

[00:29:26] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, so out of the 10, one will say yes. Uh, and so you will hear a lot of nos and it’s okay. A no is good as well. So that’s something that I learned in, in this call center as well. And no is very valuable as well. Uh, uh, have that No, it’s okay. Um, and um, if you look at it that way, then I. Then it’s, it’s, it goes on its own.

[00:29:47] Amy-Jane Meerman: You don’t have to pressure so much. You don’t have to push, uh, so much. And if you have a good, uh, uh, if you have a realistic and, and, and, uh, and good, I wanted to say story. It’s not a story if you have, yeah. You call for an NGO and they really have, uh, something that they need the fund for. People will understand.

[00:30:05] Amy-Jane Meerman: You don’t have to push. Um, again, about the retention, just going back a little bit, um. If it goes about, uh, people that say, I don’t have a budget. And I think this is a very important one. That’s why I, I want to put it in. Um, I don’t have a budget. There are whole methods to go around to this. No. Turning it into a Yes.

[00:30:28] Amy-Jane Meerman: And, um, they are very proud of, uh, also the agent. Oh ha. I, I, yeah. She said yes at the end. Um. We have to, we really have to, uh, look better at ethical how we, how we work. Ethical. You know, I called for a long time and, um, and if you have been poor yourself, my mother, uh, was, uh, was alone with, uh, with us children.

[00:30:51] Amy-Jane Meerman: She was poor. She’s very, very giving. Um, and um, when I was calling a lot of people. Are poor themselves. Mm-hmm. So if you know people that wanna help other people are often people that know how it feels to, to need help. Mm-hmm. Um, so we commercialize it in the sense of yeah. But if they say no, you just have to go around it.

[00:31:13] Amy-Jane Meerman: You have to say that. Yes, I understand it. And, and, uh, um, yes, absolutely. I agree that you have to do some efforts to, to motivate someone to give. So I don’t say no, don’t do it, but there is a line. There is an ethical line that you should not pass. Mm-hmm. Uh, if someone is talking about hardship and you’re still trying to push to get that result in, um, it’s, it’s not kind of ethical.

[00:31:39] Amy-Jane Meerman: And, um, I, I just want to, to return on the retention. If you do it and you’re very proud of yourself because I have done it, um, we see and analyzes that that person doesn’t stay a long time. Mm-hmm. Yes, you have upgraded for five euros, for example. Mm-hmm. Um, but if they only stay three months after that, then you better should have left that person.

[00:32:03] Amy-Jane Meerman: Be the gift that he already had and was comfortable with. Maybe he would have supported another 10 years. But, so I, I think the whole idea of, of, um, of tele fundraising, having to get these results. Continuity. It, it always has to be better and better and better. Mm-hmm. That, that is not okay. Um, I, I think sometimes we lose a little bit of what fundraising and people that are giving for NGOs, what that really means because we’re so under pressure.

[00:32:37] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, and yeah, that’s important.

[00:32:39] Simon Scriver: Yeah. And I thi I think, you know, you said earlier about, about good telephone calls, and I think there is, you know, there’s, there’s this, sometimes there’s this split between either telephone’s great. And you just do as much as possible and sell, sell out, and also telephone’s terrible.

[00:32:55] Simon Scriver: Don’t touch it, don’t do anything. But you, you know, you and your team seem to have found this lovely space and, and you can feel it off you, the empathy mm-hmm. And the warmth. I can imagine that coming through in the calls and Yeah, and then it isn’t a sales call, it’s, it’s presenting this opportunity and if it’s not the right time for them, then that that’s okay.

[00:33:11] Simon Scriver: So I love what, yeah. I love what you, you

[00:33:14] Amy-Jane Meerman: know, the empathy and the warmth comes true and it scares. Uh, it scar projects because okay, she’s soft. Uh, and if I do pitches, um, for, for great NGOs where I really want to work with, um, there, there is a real reluctancy to, uh, to. Not to understand me, but to, to believe me, uh, to, to know that you can have good results by doing it a little bit softer.

[00:33:46] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Um, and, and that’s sometimes a point that I have difficulty with. Like, uh, yeah. But I care about results of course.

[00:33:54] Simon & Amy-Jane: Yeah.

[00:33:55] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, so yeah, that’s a little bit of, of the challenge, uh, that we have in the fundraising, uh, community, I think. Yeah. Um, and yeah, my. What I really, really, really would love, and that’s why I am saying it right now as well, um, to have a universal, uh, way of looking at KPIs.

[00:34:17] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, we have a very, um, we have a very broad, uh, result file with KPIs to exactly see if there’s a problem in the call list or there’s a problem with the agents or there’s another problem. Um, so I, I, I would so much love. To have a universal, uh, result file that we can all use and, and some of a method that we can all use.

[00:34:41] Amy-Jane Meerman: I think if there was. If there was a time to start doing that, it, it’s, it, we are there, we’re there, um, uh, to, to, to do the ethical fundraising and, uh, to care about all people in the sector. Um, it’s, it’s now the time to do so for organizations to share with other organizations what works and what doesn’t work for call centers to share their information.

[00:35:05] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, I think it’s, uh, I, I, I know it’s. Difficult topic, but it’s time to do so. We are under pressure. We have to, we have to work together. Um, so that’s, that’s my message, uh, as well.

[00:35:19] Simon Scriver: I love it. And I think you’re leading by example and I’m so happy that you made the time to speak with us and you’ve been, you know, when I’ve seen you speak, you’ve been so open and, and so generous in what you share.

[00:35:29] Simon Scriver: So I’m really, really grateful for that. Amy Jane, and you are going to be speaking at the Fundraising Everywhere telephone fundraising conference, uh, on the 24th of April. Anyone who’s listening that wants to see, uh, uh, hear more from Amy Jane, uh, and see all of our other great speakers that is on the 24th of April, and tickets are available.

[00:35:46] Simon Scriver: You can check the description. Amy Janey, what are you speaking out about? About the conference.

[00:35:51] Amy-Jane Meerman: Yeah. Uh, so firstly, I just want to say thank you so much for how you organize all of this. You have put a lot of, of work in the before, um, the sessions and, and I think that’s so special. Um, so I just want to thank you for, for the guidance, uh, that you give the speakers.

[00:36:09] Amy-Jane Meerman: I, I, I really want to say that as well. Um, what am I speaking, uh, about? So it, it comes back on the same, I’m a people person. I want. Talk about how, how much I love people and how interesting it is to, to connect with people. Uh, but not only this, I think, um, I I wanted to variate a little bit about, uh, about the topic than I already did, uh, in, in session that we were in together.

[00:36:35] Amy-Jane Meerman: Um, but um, yeah, the, the pitfalls and, uh, and. The, the opposite. So the, the wins that you can get out of working with tech. Um, so AI is a very big topic, you know, it’s great and I love it. It’s my best friend, Che Chit. I love Che Chit. Uh, if I, if I work through the, the, the night and, uh, and up till, uh, one or two o’clock, yeah, let’s hip focus, um, then, uh, then that’s my best friend.

[00:37:06] Amy-Jane Meerman: And, and, you know, uh, you get a polite answer back and it’s great and you want it to, to have ideas for scripting or what to talk about in podcast with Simon, then, then it’s just easy. You ask it, you get it back and um, great. But I have seen so many things go around and, uh, many promises made and, uh, and yeah.

[00:37:28] Amy-Jane Meerman: Of course you have wins, big wins, and you have pitfalls. And, um, I think if you are under pressure, then it’s a very, very difficult path. Uh, and, and you don’t know what to choose. So, um, I’m very passionate to talk about that as well because I’ve seen so much in the last four years.

[00:37:45] Simon Scriver: Yeah. Is a, is AI gonna take a, well, no spoilers, you can tell us.

[00:37:49] Simon Scriver: Yeah, it’s

[00:37:49] Amy-Jane Meerman: a spoiler

[00:37:50] Simon Scriver: take over. Telephone fundraising, I feel like. Yeah,

[00:37:52] Amy-Jane Meerman: yeah, yeah. Then you really have to, to visit the session. Uh, yeah, yeah,

[00:37:55] Simon Scriver: yeah. But Amy Jane has, has the answer, so I’m really, I’m so happy that you’re gonna be presenting and thank you so much,

[00:38:02] Amy-Jane Meerman: Amy

[00:38:02] Simon Scriver: Jyn. For anyone listening or watching, where’s the best place to find you?

[00:38:05] Simon Scriver: Do you hang out on social media or LinkedIn, or how do people get in touch with you? Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:09] Amy-Jane Meerman: yeah. LinkedIn, uh, for now it’s LinkedIn. Um, so there you can find me, uh, our website, of course, uh, the crew, Belgium. Uh, and yeah, thank you so much for asking that as well. Uh, you are all welcome to connect, um, because I have a lot of things to tell.

[00:38:26] Simon Scriver: Brilliant. Well, I’m, I’m so glad I’m here to listen to it. So, yeah.

[00:38:29] Amy-Jane Meerman: Thank

[00:38:30] Simon Scriver: you very much, Amy. Jane. Can,

[00:38:32] Amy-Jane Meerman: can I just share one last thing before you end? Um, okay. So the last thing I want to share with the world, uh, is, uh, what I tell all the agents the first day that they begin. This is the place where you are going to discover that there are more good people than bad.

[00:38:49] Amy-Jane Meerman: Uh, and, and that’s how I want to end this, uh, this session.

[00:38:54] Simon Scriver: I love that, Amy Jane and everyone, it’s such a delight. So, great. Thank you very much. And to all of you listeners, I wanna say thank you so much again for tuning in. Uh, whether you’re watching this, uh, listeners to this on the podcast, watching it back somewhere on LinkedIn, um, or maybe you’re watching it, uh, after the conference even, don’t forget the telephone fundraising conferences happening on the 24th of April, and the link for that is in the description.

[00:39:17] Simon Scriver: My name has been and is Simon Scriber. I am one of the co-founders of Fundraising Everwhere. This has been the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. Thank you everyone, and have a good day.

[00:35:26] Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much for listening to the Fundraising Everywhere podcast. If you’re enjoying this podcast, why not share it with a fundraising friend? And if you would like to give us a little like or subscribe, it really helps more fundraisers like you find us.

[00:35:39] Alex Aggidis: Thank you so much. See you next time.

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